Casey: Welcome to the Parenting Teens with Positive Discipline audio summit, I am your host, Casey O'Roarty, certified positive discipline trainer, coach and founder of Joyful Courage. This audio summit is designed to dig into the principles of holding the foundation of positive discipline while navigating the very real and messy experience of being a guide for our teenagers.
Special thank you to Jane Nelson and Lynn Lott, authors of Positive Discipline for Teenagers and the Positive Discipline Association whose mission it is to create a peaceful world by teaching Adlerian social and emotional life skills for respectful relationships. All the guests you will hear on this audio summit have extensive knowledge in positive discipline and have or are currently raising teenagers themselves. Thank you for listening and be sure to join us in the Joyful Courage Parents of Teens Facebook group for more discussion about this particular interview.
My guest today is Kelly Pfieffer. Kelly is a positive discipline lead trainer who trains parent educators and currently serves on the Positive Discipline Association Board of Directors. One of her favorite topics to teach parent educators is social emotional development, birth through age 18. She and her husband John blended a family when their children were ages 12, 13, 15 and 15. Now those children are all college graduates and Kelly has lots to share with us about her experience of raising 4 teenagers in the same house.
Hi, Kelly thank you so much for being part of the Parenting Teens with Positive Discipline audio summit.
Kelly: Thanks, Casey, I'm glad to be here and share my experience.
Casey: Yay, can you tell the listeners a bit about your experience with parenting through the teen years with P.D.?
Kelly: Well, I have to take a big breath first. Even looking back on it, wow. When my kids became teenagers and I was blending my family with my husband's teenagers, I had tons of positive discipline training and it was still so hard. It was so hard to blend the family. It was so hard to transition into the teen years with my own children and wow, it was just super, super, super challenging and so I that's what I'm, one of the things I want your listeners to know, that I had much experience teaching social emotional development teaching parents, still teaching positive discipline and still it was, it was so challenging, I couldn't even believe.
Casey: Yeah and that's what we were, before I hit record, you know, that conversation around it is messy and it's challenging and that is not a reflection of how good or bad you're doing as a parent, it's just hard.
Kelly: Yeah and I think parents are hard on themselves anyway and then, when it comes to the teen years and we feel like "OK, we've been doing all this work here, hoping that the teen years would be slightly less rocky than we've seen other parents doing and it just doesn't turn out to be that way for the most part.
Casey: And today we're going to talk about emotional development of teenagers and I'm really excited about this conversation, myself having a newly turned 13 year old son and a nearly 16 year old daughter, the topic is really near and dear to me. And before we dig into it, can you define for us what is meant, what you mean by emotional development, what does this mean?
Kelly: Well, when I teach this topic, I talk about nature versus nurture. And so nature is how our D.N.A. has programmed humans to develop over time, so if we think about physical development, we see how that changes and evolves over time. First kids crawl and then they walk, we see what that looks like. Well, there's something going on emotionally and socially as well that's in our D.N.A. and there are stages that happen just like physical development but we just can't see it. It's not as obvious on the outside but there are definitely predictable stages that are happening for emotional development as well.
Casey: Can you give us the brief history of emotional development that happens in those first 12 years prior to the teen years?
Kelly: Well, for those people who are familiar with Erikson stages, that's kind of a staple or just the groundwork that Erickson did, we keep building on and we see that there's a lot of things that he noticed when he studied development that we still find true today when we study the brain. So the first year of life, the first 18 months is about trust versus mistrust. We need to build up this strong, close knit relationship with our children and then the very next stage that, well, let me go back. First, children are completely dependent on us at that stage but then very soon and even at the end of that stage of trust is autonomy and that's where this stage of autonomy means that children want to manage themselves, they want to start doing that, they want to do as much for themselves as possible and be as independent as possible here. Toddler saying "me do it" that is exactly what's going on with autonomy and then children learn they can say "No" because they learn that they can have a different opinion than their parent has and so they say "No." All that is typical development and then the preschool stage, oh gosh, I don't know what I was going to explain here so let me just pull that out. Let's see-
Casey: Isn't that initiative?
Kelly: It is, thank you, initiative.
Casey: You're welcome.
Kelly: And so initiative is building on that autonomy even more. So trust is about being with someone else a lot, autonomy is "Oh, I can do some things by myself and manage some of myself" so it's sleeping, eating, toileting are the big tasks there and then in the preschools stage children kind of go out and explore with the world. First they were trying to manage themselves, now they're exploring out in the world to manage the world and they like to create things and build sculptures of blocks and art supplies, so they're learning outside of themselves a lot in this stage. And they move into elementary school years, where, do you remember what Erikson called that stage?
Casey: Is it industry? I know, it's okay. Is it industry?
Kelly: Thank you. I do this all the time and usually have my powerpoint slides up there. So in the elementary school years children want to feel capable at school but also in their primary relationships with friends and so this is when they're really developing those social skills and friendship skills with friends as well some people teach this, it just has to do with doing well in school but it's also in other relationships outside of the family. And then in the teen years-
Casey: Yeah, what happened? What is happening?
Kelly: It's like it's that autonomy again but in such a big way, it's like "Now, I'm breaking totally away from my family to show that I can be my own person."
Kelly: I can be a different person than you. I don't have to think the same things that you do and so in the Positive Discipline for Teens, the authors talk about individuation. So that's what teens are doing, they're showing that they are individuals that used to be a part of your family and they still are, but now they're showing that they can be whoever they want to be no matter what their family of origin is.
Casey: They sure can. They sure can so emotional development is happening no matter what, right? It's part of our D.N.A.
Kelly: You know, we don't get to choose and push that button or not choose or, you know, launch or-
Kelly: Or cancel, it just, it's going to happen, it's programmed in the D.N.A. to do that.
Casey: And so then the role of parents, right and how we respond can really influence what emotional development looks like.
Kelly: It does, in fact, Eriksson said the environment has a huge effect on how children will progress through their stages.
Casey: Yeah, whew, no pressure. But pressure.
Kelly: So there's nature, if I want to go back to that nature versus nurture, there's this nature and how we're designed to develop over time and then there's the nurture factor. So there's these 2 things working together.
Casey: Yeah. So I had my own experience of navigating some heavy, I would say, emotional development when my daughter was in 9th grade last year and it felt really, as the parent experiencing her, it felt really scary. It felt like she was really committed to her, well, we we coined it, we talk, we just say "teen angst." You know, she was in a hole and it didn't, my experience, and I've shared this with her, excuse me and have permission to speak into it.
My experience was she was in a hole but really didn't seem to have any desire to stand up and see out to see that there was life outside of the hole. From my perspective, again, she had decided that she didn't belong in our family, she actually said as much, you know, "I don't want to be a part of this family." It was really hard not to stay at the surface level of that and take that really personally. Is this, you know, was this kind of behavior, would you say, part of her developmental journey?
Kelly: I think, yes, because part of that journey is questioning where we came from and questioning our family of origin and saying do we want to be like them? Do I want to be like my family? Do I want to believe something different about all kinds of things, about my eating habits and about religious beliefs, about whether I even recycle or not? What likely when my teenagers rebel and say that "I'm not going to recycle anymore." I mean it can be the mundane to something really serious but the message is "I don't have to do what, you know, the way, that these ways or these things that you taught me to do all the years. I don't really have to do it like this. I have a choice and do I want to do things the way that you have taught me to?"
Casey: Yeah and so then being the responsive parent, right, it's really challenging when they're bumping up against things that we value, like, you know, like spiritual beliefs, religion or recycling or whatever, it starts to feel like a personal rejection, right or a personal attack. So how do you support parents who might be in that place of "Well, but these are my values, what am I supposed to do here?"
Kelly: Yes, so it hurts a lot. You and I both know that.
Casey: Yes, we do.
Kelly: It hurts a lot and what I tried to do was to not take it personally and say "This is part of their journey. And also, this is not who they will be later once they have matured to adulthood or even a young adult. This is not who they are, this is a journey that they are on and this is part of their journey to try out other things."
Casey: Yeah, yeah and interestingly, my daughter was adamant at the end of the school year last year about not returning to the local high school and I was weary of this. She wanted to do online school. I have mentioned this in other interviews, I, of course, was like "What? I don't even know what that is" and it felt very like "This isn't how you do this, you know, this isn't what it looks like" and I, in the end, let her take that lead and enrolled her in online school and I have to say the shift in environment has supported her in so many ways and it was really hard to trust that it was the right move but four months in everything is different with her and I wonder how often might we parents let the idea that "Well, I'm the adult, I know what's best, I've been a teen, I know what you need" or even, "This is how it should look," get in the way of trusting our teens to know what it is that they want.
Kelly: That's about the hardest part of raising teen years that there is.
Casey: Yeah, yeah and so do you have any wisdom that you can share with all of us so that we could get better at just trusting them and even, you know, even as I say that, like, you know, we all know, I think it's common knowledge, that, you know, teenagers want to try on a lot of different identities or, or, I don't know if identity is the right word or not but they want to try and you know, there as they figure out who they are they have to try on some different things and see how it feels.
Kelly: Exactly, it's like that dramatic play they did when they were preschoolers. Today, I'm a firefighter and tomorrow I'm a ballerina and what do I want to be? It's that same process but it's just a lot bigger, scarier and has longer, kind of, like long term consequences sometimes for them to try on those roles.
Casey: Right, because it's hard to remember that "OK, this is a trying on, this isn't forever and then in the trying on, when our response is "What are you doing? You can't do that. That's ridiculous," or whatever kind of judgments come up when we are not in our best parenting minds then their choices aren't necessarily coming from them as much as it's a choice that's anti-parent.
Kelly: Could be, yes.
Casey: Yeah, yeah.
Kelly: This reminds me of a conversation I had with the counsellor about cutting behavior and she said "Nowadays we consider cutting can be a normal exploratory experience" and I said " Wait, what? What cutting your body, are you serious?" She's like, "Yes, if they're just trying it out, that's typical development."
Casey: Oh my Gosh.
Kelly: They start doing it habitually, that's when we get concerned and wonder about what the purpose is and that kind of thing so she said "Kids may try throwing up" and bulimia just to see what it's like. If they just threw up one or two times or even for a week and decided it wasn't for them, that's still typical development.
Casey: Oh wow.
Kelly: And I teach theory and I'm like, really and then actually, I thought about it a little, I thought "Well, you know, that really fits my definition of trying out roles and seeing what things are like" but oh, that just, like, it didn't sound that way at first, like are you serious? No, throwing up on purpose is bad but yeah, I've got to get over that.
Casey: Well and I think when I hear you talk about that and I think of the other risky behavior that comes up, right, whether it's experimenting with drugs or alcohol or you know, I think about when we have a really strong relationship with our kids that can support us in kind of looking, taking a look at what's happening and being able to differentiate between "OK Is this an explorer move or is this something where we need to get some help", right. I think that when we are in relationship with our kids in a way that allows us to even pose that question to them that's open and conversational and let's talk about this, I think that's where, that's a tool that really allows for, I don't know, it just, it's like, it stops being, like, all about us having to figure everything out and more of a partnership with our teenager around "OK, so I'm seeing this and I'm wondering where are you at here? Is this something that we need to get more help with?"
Kelly: Yeah and like realizing that there's exploratory things and then there's things, there's habits or behaviors that we might want to be concerned about and then that's one step and then having that conversation is so messy as well because people don't always want to admit what they're doing or they don't want to let us into the world because they're in that stage individuation where they're purposely keeping things from you just to show themselves and prove to themselves and to you that they don't have to share everything with their parents.
Casey: It's really hard for a micromanager like me, Kelly, I got to be honest.
Kelly: I remember, there was one time when we, when I could, I did not sleep for 2 solid nights about an issue with my teenage child. I could not sleep. I just could not get to sleep and I thought, well, I'll be so sleep deprived from losing sleep the first night that I'll just fall asleep at 6 pm the next night but I didn't sleep the second night either.
Casey: I can feel it. I feel my belly, I know, like, it's like this muscle memory of going back because I had a couple nights like that last year for sure and a question that's come up in my parent groups that my parents of teens community is around anger, right, anger is an emotion, yes?
Kelly: It is a pretty common one.
Casey: Yeah and is there a time with our teenagers, it's definitely felt like the answer was yes last year for me with my daughter, is there a time in development where anger is seemingly always at the surface and how can we get better at not being so reactive? Oh my gosh.
Kelly: Yeah. I mean, teens are going, their brains are going through such big changes and so there are several factors I talk about that kind of just really add more fuel to the fire of anger in the teen years and number one, their brains are just reorganizing in a big way and I'm sure somebody's going to talk about that in your series with Daniel Siegel's Brainstorm book. There's all this rearranging and rewiring of the brain going on and then secondly, that emotional part of the brain, the Limbic system, is much more developed and much more hyper sensitive then that thinking part of the brain.
And so we can just look at a child, you know, teenager like we're a little bit annoyed and their brain might read that as "My parent hates me or my parent is so disgusted by me" and so they tend to overreact because that emotional part of their brain is so sensitive. And then they've got all these sexual urges, you know, from all those sexual hormones going on and then they think "Am I normal? Did I just do something stupid in front of that boy that I like?" and there's just so much pressure, so many new things, so many body changes, brain changes, it's overwhelming for them. So no wonder they're grumpy and irritable all the time.
Casey: Yeah, well and I think it's really interesting too, like the limbic system being farther along than the logic, we'll call it the logic system so and I just want to kind of tease out a part so the ability to feel, right, the experience of emotion and feeling comes on real strong but then the ability to make sense of those emotions is still in development. Is that another way to say what you just said? and so maybe they're not making meaning that's necessarily useful, I don't know if useful is the right word, accurate?
Kelly: Yes, because they can't seem to look at it through that "Watch it" lens very often, it's all through the lens of emotion and they're just hyper focused on themselves and where this pimple is and if there's another one. Yeah, yeah and Dan, in his book says that thinking brain does not mature fully until, what is it, 25-26 years old?
Casey: Yeah, spoiler, spoiler alert everyone.
Kelly: Oh, Is that in another later.
Casey: No, no, I just mean, in general, like, we think the teen years are over when they reach 20, right? No, not so much. There's still more development to be had and you know, another thing here too is that I want to highlight is, and listeners of my podcast have heard me talk about or anyone who's taken positive discipline classes from any of us, hear about the iceberg metaphor and I, just, some of the things that you're talking about like, "I'm breaking out or I was goofy in front of that person that I like or whatever, my parents are acting weird"
So, those are all under the surface not things that we can see and I think you know, in my own experience, I remember, you know, like or remember like it's currently happening, my daughter has to go in for an M.R.I. for her wrist and they're doing a, they're putting some dye in her wrist so they can see it and she's real nervous about this shot. So, you know, it's been, it's been a little, she kind of ebbs and flows and so it gets really tense around the house and she's snappy and short and it's really easy to want to be like "Hey, you know, quit acting like that" or "Don't treat people like that" or to kind of focus, zero in on her snappiness but when I remember and can say like "You're pretty nervous about this procedure on Friday, aren't you?"
It's like her whole body can release and she can say "Yeah, I am" and then it just, it's so much, it's so useful to remember that there's all these things going on under the surface and what we think about it, right, like "Oh, you have one zit that nobody can even see but you, it's not a big deal" or "I'm sure that kids didn't notice that you tripped on your way into the building, it's not a big deal" the more that we can just kind of say, "I see you and I see you in the emotion around this" and not put any judgment on it or not try to talk them out of it, I notice that whatever that tip of the iceberg behavior, whether it's snappiness or your irritability, like it takes care of it for, somewhat, for a while until the next thing but what I'm really hearing in this conversation is just, as the parent, to really remember that there's a lot going on and to get curious under the surface of the behavior less than what's at the tip, even though, you know, we definitely want to intervene in and get curious about what we're seeing but there's so much that we're not seeing.
Kelly: Yes and I also like to use that straw that broke the camel's back metaphor as well because there's, if you would think of all those different straws as all the different stressors in the kid's life and then, it was just the one last straw, the only one you know about possibly, and there's so much more going on than just what is happening in that moment.
Casey: I like that. So, like, having a sibling walk too close to them and maybe bump their chair was the final thing and their issue isn't really with the sibling, it's all these other things that they manage to hold in and keep together until that final thing.
Casey: Yeah. And of course this all leads me back to, you know, our work as the parent, quit taking it personally. I, like, my daughter's really good at reminding me "It's not about you" and man, it's hard and just like Jane Nelson says, "Kids do better when they feel better" and I think parents get so caught up in their teens emotional experience that backing off or looking for ways that support them and feeling better feels counterintuitive, right, especially when the outward display of emotion is experienced as hurtful by the parent and we get into the "We can't let them get away with that" mentality.
Kelly: Right and I like to use that idea of those crisis moments are not teachable moments. That's not when you can teach your teenager something or your teenager can learn something. We wish, we all wish it would work that way but it just doesn't.
Casey: Yeah and yeah, gosh isn't that, and that I think goes for all of our relationships. So what are some openings, like, when you think about in your experience or working with clients who have kids that maybe are in the throes of their very normal development of their normal emotional development and they're, you know, they are a bit irritable and maybe lashing out a little bit in a variety of ways, what do you suggest as a baby step for parents to kind of, to be supportive. What does support look like?
Kelly: Well, sometimes support looks like walking away, actually, especially if you feel like you're going to be mouthy back with your teen. Sometimes walking away and taking a break for yourself is support for you and support for your teen at the same time.
Kelly: And when we do feel hurt, I think it's OK to, I mean, it's OK, we'll hurt, but sometimes we just have to keep that to ourselves at that, especially at the moment and then later, when there's a time to talk when everyone's calm and you can say, "That really hurt my feelings", go back later to talk about it but in the moment, man, it just goes nowhere and if you are a parent of a teenager, I know you've been there. Try to think, "OK, I can get through to my teen and let them clearly see that what they're doing is just respectable," you know, if you're coming at it from that angle, then it just doesn't go well.
Casey: Yeah and there is that, in positive discipline we talk about making amends, right and owning our own mischief, owning our own behavior as the parent and just from my own experience, my daughter is never ready to hear my, to make it right when I'm ready and there have been times where that's, you know, when I'm not being as thoughtful as I can be where, you know, I'll go in there and I'll launch right into it and "I'm sorry" and because and that's for me, it's to release my own emotion around how I treated her and she's told me, you know, I think it's finally getting, like, sinking in for me, you know, "You come in and I'm not ready."
Kelly: Yeah, people have to be ready.
Casey: Yeah and so asking permission as has become something that's really important in my relationship with my sometimes angsty teenager is to just simply say "Hey can we talk about this? Or "Are you ready to talk about this?" or "This is something that we are going to talk about, let me know when you're ready."
Kelly: Yeah and I'm glad you brought that up there because we have to model what it looks like to apologize to expect them to ever do that, so doing that model is important and doing it with the timing that is good for them, it's not going to work if they're not ready.
Casey: Yeah and you know, we don't get to decide what their timing is.
Casey: Although we can hold the expectation that when we make a mistake we make it right with the people and that's definitely something that we've held in our family and but it still requires sometimes some prompting and I think that's, I don't want to give any kind of illusion, like, you know, there aren't some prompting, there isn't resistance, that it's easy breezy over here because it's not and sometimes I'm the one that's getting it wrong. And it's deep work and what you just said, which reminded me, you said something about being able to oh, oh, oh when something feels hurtful, right, we as the adult humans, we get to also do some exploring in, you know, what is it about this behavior that's hurtful to me and maybe even do some tracing back asked because we all have different triggers, right, I mean, I talked to some parents and you know, messy rooms are not a big deal to them at all but you know, they don't want to, but disrespect is a really big deal whereas, hey, I can kind of roll with the disrespect and get that they are in the process of practicing and learning what that really means but, you know, for whatever reason messy rooms makes me blow my top. So we all have our triggers and I think that, you know, I say that parenting is a lifelong personal growth and development workshop if we want it to be, if we're for open to that and I think this is one of those places where it's really useful to get curious around what is it about this particular behavior that feels so hurtful to me and is it really about my kid?
Kelly: Oh yeah, I'm glad you brought that up it. Reminds me of a day when I was just sobbing because I thought I had lost the connection with my daughter. She completely doesn't care what I think, the way she acted feels so hurtful and I remember I was in the laundry room doing laundry, for some reason when I'm doing something mundane then I can have some headspace for what's going on with me and I thought she just doesn't want me to teach her anything, she won't listen to me. Then I thought, Byron Katie, he says, just reverse stuff sometimes to see how that sounds-
Kelly: and I thought, well maybe she's here to teach me something, maybe could it possibly be that I'm the one that can learn from this, instead of thinking she is supposed to be the one learning.
Casey: Yes, yes, I had Laurie Underwiser on the summit as well and we were talking before I hit record about just personalities and she gave me a great mantra to use, just in any relationship when that kind of, I don't know, it's not resistance but it's that judgment and that "Why can't they just" but she says a mantra of hers that she's used is "Bless them and change me" right and so I really appreciate that because I do see, I absolutely see our kids as teachers and Byron Katie's work, I mean, anybody that's listening just google her because it's really powerful work but yeah, the turnaround. Right, she won't listen to me. I won't listen to her, is that true?
What can I take from that? What can I learn? And I think often in parenting there's that conversation around "Oh, they hold up a mirror" and I think some people see interpret that as "Oh, they act like us. They show us how we act" but I think it's really they're highlighting the places where we get to continue to grow and develop and I know that I'm someone, I take things deeply personal, I'm a pleaser and my teenage daughter is taking me to the Olympics of how to learn not to take things personally and how to let go of what other people think of me i.e. her and to really just own my own experience and to go inward a lot of the time when I want to be like "But wait, but wait, you're making me feel sad" or "You're making me" you know, even inside of the great relationship that we have, I get to do so much learning. It's so messy and awesome and powerful and scary and all of it all at once.
Kelly: And I'm glad you are bringing some of these this last bit up because it is such an opportunity for us as parents to learn more about ourselves when we're parenting our teens and nobody really thinks of it that way, I know I didn't.
Casey: Yeah, well, I mean, otherwise it's just like we're going crazy.
Kelly: Oh yeah.
Casey: The alternative is not so fun for me so on that note, right, so there's the self care and the soul care and the emotional care parents give to themselves, right, which I would say, I'm guessing you would say, it's really important.
Kelly: Yeah just to get through it all.
Casey: Yeah, we, our marriage counsellor said to my husband and I, you two need to get a life. That's so important for the teen, living through the teen years is having your own life or you're hyper focused on them.
Kelly: That was going to be my next thing was exactly that, "Casey, get a life, find out what you like to do now." It's hard to let go, in order to do that, there's a little process to work through because we feel guilty sometimes when we're having fun when it doesn't have to do with their children, like I'm supposed to be supporting this child 100 percent of the time but in the teen years it doesn't work well if we approach it like that.
Casey: Right, especially considering we want them to fly the coop.
Casey: So thank you so much, Kelly, for coming on and it's such a privilege to be in conversation with you.
Kelly: Well thanks for having me. Gosh, I'm just looking back on those years when my kids were teens and wishing I could have let go more but we are all where we are.
Kelly: And we can't let go completely, which is not what I'm suggesting anyway, but it's, we have to let go in baby steps.
Casey: Yeah. Yeah well and yes, maybe we'll do a podcast about that because now all of a sudden I have a 100 more questions for you, but I'll just save that for the podcast.
Kelly: Yeah, I feel like we barely touched the surface on emotional development.
Casey: Yeah but we'll come back, we'll be sure to come back in conversation about around that. So if parents are listening right now and want to get in touch with you where are the places that you are where people can find you?
Kelly: Well I am going to direct them to some interesting places because my website is being redone right now so I'd really have a good place, a good landing place but I am at on Twitter is where I actually connect with people on Twitter in surprising ways. And Instagram.
Casey: Great and are you Kelly Pfeiffer or are you, who are you in those places?
Kelly: On Twitter I am @gointeractivekp
Casey: I'll make sure the link is in the notes.
Kelly: OK And then on Instagram, I am @thinkitthroughparenting, let me verify that for you, just a second. Let me get my cell phone out here. It's funny how I'm not used to, you know, I just go and do my stuff, I'm like "Oh, you want to get in touch with me? How do we do that?" OK Instagram.
Casey: I think you're gointeractive.
Kelly: Well, I have, see now I have my other business teaching because I have trained trainers how to train effectively so that's @gointeractive.
Casey: Got it.
Kelly: One that I have, one that's just for parenting because it's @thinkitthroughparenting and that's where out on Instagram where I share parenting and the the gointeractive on Instagram is where I share training tips and training workshops.
Casey: Well, I'm guessing that some of the listeners of the summit will, I'm guessing there will probably be some parent trainers and educators that are listening in too so those will be useful. Thank you so much for sharing time with me today.
Kelly: You are welcome Casey, thanks so much for doing this because doing this work, doing this summit because parents really need a place to go, they are looking for, just all kinds of, they ask questions or looking for validation that they're not screwing up their children and it's nice to have you out in the world in their ear talking to them.
Casey: Awww, thanks.